Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has rejected a U.S. peace plan that would freeze territory along the current front lines of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, stipulate that Ukraine could never join NATO, and require Ukraine to recognise Russia’s annexation of Crimea—the latter, a position that Ukraine and many European nations are resolutely opposed to. In response, a planned meeting in London between top diplomats from the U.S., Ukraine, France, Germany, and the U.K. was postponed, and discussions to end the war were downgraded. Given these developments, the diplomatic wrangling and the fighting in Ukraine seem likely to continue for the foreseeable future.
As CNN’s Andrew Carey and Victoria Butenko reported last week, although the extent to which foreign fighters participate in the war remains murky, Ukraine has undoubtedly captured a number of non-Russian POWs, including small groups from former Soviet republics, China, North Korea, Sri Lanka, and Nepal, plus individuals from Somalia, Republic of Congo, Sierra Leone, Egypt, and Syria. A Ukrainian press conference featured two captured Chinese POWs who stated that they had signed contracts with the Russian military for personal reasons—an attractive monthly salary in one case, and the promise of Russian citizenship in the other. Unlike North Korea, whose government has sent over 14,000 of its soldiers to fight on the Russian side, the Chinese government does not encourage its citizens to get involved in the war, and may even criticize them if they do. In Part One of investigative journalist Chai Jing’s video interview with “Macaron,” a Chinese citizen fighting on the Russian side in Bakhmut, one Chinese mercenary complained that the Chinese embassy refused to help him because it claimed he had made a “personal decision” to enlist in the Russian army. Despite this, it is likely that China’s “no limits partnership” with Russia, strongly pro-Russia state-media coverage of the war, and tolerance of bellicose social media content has fueled the desire of some Chinese men—particularly the unemployed, indebted, or estranged—to go and fight for Russia in Ukraine.
Part Two of Chai Jing’s YouTube interview with Macaron is translated in full below. (It begins at the 22:47 timestamp in the YouTube video.) Their wide-ranging conversation, conducted by video from a bunker in Bakhmut where Macaron was bivouacked, is interspersed with copious photos, videos, and social media posts from Macaron and other Chinese soldiers involved in the Russia-Ukraine war. This second part covers such topics as drone and trench warfare, landmines, battlefield deaths and injuries, mental health, abandoned homes and animals, the role of foreign mercenaries in the war, and larger moral questions about the morality of warfare. (For more CDT coverage of the Russia-Ukraine war, see “Four Censored Essays on the Ukraine Crisis,” “Netizen Voices on Ukraine,” and a censorship directive with instructions to “keep Weibo posts on Ukraine favorable to Russia.”)
Chai: Would it be possible for you to escape on your own, to just leave the battlefield, say, and walk off? Could you do that?
Macaron: No way. There are checkpoints everywhere. And to be honest, in the areas around us, there’s nothing to stop anyone from just shooting and killing you. This place, there’s no law, no morality, no constraints against … [There is a long pause, as the video becomes choppy and voices are audible in the background. Macaron moves into what looks like a different area of the bunker.] There’s none of that here.
Chai: Our interviews were often interrupted by Russian soldiers. As someone fighting in a foreign army, someone who doesn’t understand the language, Macaron’s constant tension, vigilance, and uneasiness is palpable.
Macaron: This isn’t a good place to be a foreigner. For example, when we’re being shelled, they’ll tell you to get down on the ground, but you won’t understand (the order). They say to turn left, but you turn right instead. The language barrier is a huge obstacle. Once when I was coming back from the bathroom, I saw this wire on the ground. It was a tripwire, and if I’d stepped on it, I would’ve been dead for sure. It was connected to a landmine. Luckily, I stepped over it. When I got back inside, I asked (the other soldiers), “Why didn’t you tell me there were mines out there? Why didn’t you say you’d planted mines outside?”
Chai: Did no one else in your unit know about the mines, besides the person who planted them?
Macaron: Someone might have. Or maybe the person who planted it was already dead.
Chai: It all sounds extremely disorganized. Would that be fair to say?
Macaron: Yes, that’s how it is in war. It’s complete chaos.
Chai: In the [Russian-occupied] Southern Military District, [another Chinese mercenary named] Zhou Zhiqiang described a similar level of chaos. During a battle in the trenches, one of the men in his unit, a Nepalese mercenary, started firing his assault rifle indiscriminately and killed some of his fellow soldiers. Abandoning his injured comrades, the man tried to escape, only to step on a landmine. While fighting in the trenches, Zhou Zhiqiang also came face-to-face with a Ukrainian soldier he dubbed “Grandpa.” During the confrontation, the elderly Ukrainian soldier abandoned his gun, with the safety still on, and fled.
Chai (V.O.): According to the U.S. Department of Defense, as of October 2024, Russian forces had sustained over 600,000 casualties. But Ukraine’s resistance and counteroffensive has also exacted a heavy toll. In August of that same year, Zelenskyy stated that 43,000 Ukrainian soldiers had been killed, and another 370,000 wounded.
Macaron (V.O.): [in a video showing bowls of chicken soup] Last night, we stormed and captured a position, so our commander’s rewarding us with some chicken soup. Despite our lousy equipment, we put up a good fight. But both sides suffered heavy casualties. I won’t even go into the details, it’s too gory.
Chai: Before you made the choice to see these people as “the enemy,” did you ever think to yourself that maybe instead of being the enemy, they’re just victims?
Macaron: Honestly, from Ukraine’s perspective, we are the invaders. Because we’ve attacked their soldiers, we’ve occupied their territory. But from Russia’s perspective, it’s about maintaining peace in the Donbas region and preventing NATO’s expansion. Personally, I don’t have a particular stance.
Chai: But by choosing one side over the other, aren’t you essentially deciding who your enemy is, and whose values you’re defending?
Macaron: For me, it’s not about values. It’s just a job.
Chai: But Macaron, you must realize that a big part of your job involves … killing people.
Macaron: But since we’re an assault unit, most of the time, when we’re far from the enemy, they usually spot us first. Because they have drones. When they spot us, they launch drones—suicide drones—and artillery attacks against us. It’s rare that we really get that close, close enough to see them face to face. That sort of thing is rare. It hardly ever happens.
Chai: I feel like you’re dodging the question a bit. In fact, you are aware that they’re there, and you do come face to face with them, don’t you?
Macaron: Yes. In certain situations, yes, that’s true.
Chai: In that moment when you’re face to face with another human being and you raise your gun at them, do you ever ask yourself if what you’re doing is wrong?
Macaron: In combat, just a few seconds can determine whether you live or die. It all happens so fast, I don’t have time to think about things like that. What I spend most of my time thinking about is how I can get out of this brutal war alive.
Chai: Is it that you don’t have time to think, or that you’re afraid if you start to question things too much, you’ll lose your resolve, and that will put your life in danger?
Macaron: Both. If I hesitate, or overthink, or let my emotions get the better of me, it makes me vulnerable. And that means I could end up like them (other soldiers who have died). Over time, I’ve become numb. Now I’m just numb.
Chai (V.O.): Bakhmut, where Macaron is stationed, was the site of the bloodiest and most protracted battle of the Russia-Ukraine war. This city that was once home to 70,000 residents is now a trench-scarred wasteland. Its schools, hospitals, and churches lie in ruins, and stray cats and dogs wander the streets.
[Chai’s voiceover is accompanied by a photo of a fire in a building in Bakhmut; a video of a huge explosion leveling a vast swath of the city; a photo of a man squatting down to embrace a large stray dog lying in the middle of a road; and a video surveying the collapsed, rubble-strewn interior of a building.]
[In another video, Macaron pets a purring, grey brindled cat standing on the ground near his feet.]
Macaron (V.O.): This is my cat. He’s really friendly. Sometimes when I go out on patrol, he comes along. Look how happy he is to see me. I feed him canned food whenever I can, whatever I can find. Sometimes he even sleeps with me at night. It’s nice. See right there, where his fur is singed off? He got too close to the stove and burned himself.
Chai: But you know you’re standing in someone else’s home, in someone else’s city. You also know that what you’re doing is destructive. Since you have such sympathy for a cat, I would guess that you still have some sympathy for people, too.
Macaron: Actually, I saw this post on Xiaohongshu [Red Note] a while ago. You know Xiaohongshu, right? This post was from a Ukrainian talking about Bakhmut, where I am now. [a video taken by Macaron in Bakhmut shows broken trees, deserted roads, collapsed buildings, and ground littered with debris] He said, “Bakhmut, where my family lived for generations, used to be my home. But now, because of the war, I’ve had to leave.” I sent him a reply saying I was in Bakhmut, and asked him where his house was. He told me it was long gone, just ruins now. I said that’s just how war is. Even though I knew there was nothing I could do to change things, it stirred up a lot of feelings, and I really did want to be his friend. Because if this were my hometown being destroyed, my house being captured by the enemy, I’d be devastated, too. That’s just a normal human reaction. All I could do was try to console him, and maybe I was also trying to fool myself, to numb myself, by saying, “Yeah, that’s just how war is.”
Chai: Macaron, it feels like there are two personalities at war within you.
Macaron: Yeah. Right now, I’m part of this army, so I have to behave according to its rules. But I also have my own thoughts and feelings. And I’ve been treated unfairly, unjustly, and even cruelly by Russians, too. So yeah, I do feel conflicted. It’s complicated.
[The screen fades to a darkened video, with a voice speaking in Russian and explosions in the background.]
Chai (V.O.): When he’s not fighting, Macaron spends most of his time sitting in the dark, listening to the ceaseless gunfire and explosions. Before enlisting in the war, he had cut ties with his parents and broken up with his girlfriend. Over the past year and a half, nearly all the foreign fighters he trained with have died in battle, and those still alive are exhibiting signs of mental breakdown.
Macaron (V.O.): [in another video, showing several pots of instant noodles] There was this Russian guy with a red beard who just disappeared. You could tell he was already fucking starting to lose it. [a fellow soldier shouts incoherently in the background] You get used to it. People just vanish.
Macaron: [speaking with Chai Jing again] A lot of guys here get injured, sent to hospital, and start drinking on the sly. When they drink, it’s like they’ve gone totally insane. I think a lot of soldiers here are like that. Because some have been fighting for two, three years, and it drives them to extremes. Some even use drugs.
Chai: Can you get drugs on the front lines?
Macaron: I don’t know, but some people must have connections. I’ve heard that in the fields around some Ukrainian cities, they grow stuff, but I’m not sure. Me, I don’t normally smoke tobacco, but if we’re taking fire on the battlefield, I need a cigarette just to calm my nerves.
[In another video, Macron speaks to a rat perched on scaffolding against a gray concrete wall.]
Macaron (V.O.): Hey, little buddy, you’re back. What are you doing here? [As the rat scuttles away, there is a booming explosion in the distance.] Fuck.
Chai: I can imagine that when you’re trapped underground like that, in complete darkness, it must be easy to fall into despair.
Macaron: Yeah, it was dark and damp, and you couldn’t even relieve the stress by talking to anyone. It was pretty awful. But by now, I don’t really care anymore, because I’ve gotten used to it. Sometimes I just feel lucky I’m still alive. And if I don’t survive, that’s fine, too. Just make it a quick death, you know? Don’t torture me, just make it quick. I can deal with that. What I can’t deal with is being alive but wanting to die and not being able to. They don’t kill you straight away. First they might blow your leg off, leave you crawling on the ground, then blow away your arm. Then they’d … that’s what they’d do. [Macaron falls silent and looks down. Chai gives a long sigh.] That’s just how war is. It’s the same for soldiers on both sides.
[A photo of a soldier reaching out a hand as if to stop the military drone hovering above him.]
Chai (V.O.): Dreading that kind of suffering, Macaron always carries a grenade with him.
Macaron (V.O.): [in a video, Macaron holds a grenade in one hand] Going into battle, I always keep one last grenade for myself, just in case.
[A photo of a soldier raising both hands in the air as a large military drone approaches. Chinese social media posts about drone attacks.]
Chai (V.O.): Many Chinese mercenaries have been killed by drone strikes. According to Zhou Zhiqiang, after his unit captured a trench, they were struck by explosives dropped by unmanned drones. Afterward, Zhou found [his friend and fellow mercenary] Zhao Rui covered in blood, dead on his back with eyes open, staring at the sky. Zhou, whose leg had been blown off, managed to escape by first playing dead, and then crawling out of the combat zone. It took him six hours to cover the one-kilometer distance.
Zhou Zhiqiang: [In a darkened video, Zhou wears a military-green muffler that covers his neck and mouth. Only his nose and eyes are visible.] Our trenches were bombed. We were bombed, and a lot of people died. I was hit seven times, and it was a miracle I survived. I made it back alive to tell you: don’t come here. Whatever you do, don’t come. My friend Zhao is dead, and it wasn’t a peaceful death.
Chai (V.O.): Zhao Rui had once told Zhou Zhiqiang that his final wish, if he died in battle, was for Zhou to bring a lock of his hair back to his parents, so his “soul could return home.” But there were no scissors at hand on the battlefield, so Zhou only managed to bring back his friend’s ID. [a photo of Zhao Rui in uniform with other soldiers, above a photo page from his passport] It reads: “Zhao Rui. 38 years old. Unmarried. Resident of Chongqing.” This is the last video that Zhao Rui recorded before he died.
Zhao Rui: [In a video, Zhao speaks to the camera. He is dressed in a green camouflage jacket with a hood and a tan mask over the lower half of his face.] Here’s some advice for you guys who’ve messaged me about coming here: don’t come. There’s nothing for you here. Get a job back home. If you work hard, you’ll earn just as much as you would here.
[As Zhao continues speaking, the video switches to grainy drone-based footage of a lone man trudging through the wilderness along a dirt path. The man wears a large backpack, and carries what appear to be two heavy jugs of water. A bomb of some sort falls from the drone, and the man begins racing down the path, raising clouds of dust. Another bomb falls toward the man, and the footage fades to black.]
Zhao Rui (V.O.): It’s been so long since I’ve had food from my hometown. I miss it so much, and wish I could go back. [sigh] I think about what I miss eating the most. I just keep thinking and thinking about it. I think about how much seasoning you’re supposed to add, and how long you should stir-fry it. [laughs]
Chai (V.O.): Zhao Rui was the first confirmed Chinese casualty in the Russia-Ukraine war. There are no reliable statistics on the total number of Chinese mercenaries killed or injured, but Macaron estimates that out of a hundred-plus Chinese fighting there, more than half have been killed or wounded.
[During Chai’s voice-over narration, we see various images and videos: a selfie of Zhao Rui in fatigues with two other foreign soldiers. A video Zhao Rui took upon his arrival in Moscow of a military-themed display of funeral wreaths, photos of fallen soldiers, and various flags, including a flag from the PMC Wagner Group.]
[Another video just shows the ground, and a shadow on the ground. A man speaks, and loud explosions are audible in the background.]
Man in video (V.O.): Every day there’s bombing. Why would you want to come to a place like this?
Chai (V.O.): Macaron made a public announcement about the deaths of four of those men.
[A black-and-white screenshot shows a social media post and video from Macaron, asking for help informing the families of four Chinese men who died in the fighting: Liu Jie, Liu Hongwei, Xu Hang, and Pan Da.]
Chai (V.O.): On August 1, 2024, 20-year-old Liu Jie and his friend Liu Hongwei were both killed by landmines and bombs. It was their first day on the battlefield.
Macaron: [speaking to the camera, in a video he posted to Douyin] From what I heard, four days ago, Liu Jie and Liu Hongwei were carrying out a mission. Liu Hongwei stepped on an IED that injured his leg. Then a drone dropped five bombs and he was killed. The other guy, Liu Jie, the little guy, was killed by bombs from two FPV [“first-person view,” or radio-controlled] drones. If anyone out there knows their families, friends, or classmates, please contact me, and I’ll do my best to communicate with the Russians here, so that at the very least, their families can get some closure.
Chai: Back home, some of these guys had seen your videos. So on some level, you may have inspired them, or been a factor that influenced their decision to come here. How did you feel when you heard they had died?
Macaron: I think it’s probably true that I did mislead them, to some extent. But after I reported what happened to them, after I exposed their deaths, Douyin straight up banned my account.
Chai: Why do you think that happened?
Macaron: Maybe because they didn’t want people to know that Chinese soldiers were dying here.
[Close ups of the photos of Liu Jie and Liu Hongwei in uniform.]
Chai (V.O.): Did the families of those soldiers who were killed in action ever receive the 5 million rubles (less than 400,000 yuan, or $55,000 U.S.) in compensation that Russia had promised them? Macaron isn’t sure. No one ever contacted him.
[More photos of Liu Jie and Liu Hongwei in uniform, followed by a screenshot of journalist Lu Yuhuang’s online letter to Putin.]
Chai (V.O.): Phoenix TV journalist Lu Yuguang later wrote a letter to Putin, which was published online. The letter stated that a month after Zhao Rui’s death, his parents had yet to receive their son’s remains, or even an official notification. Lu urged Putin to “handle the matter as promptly as possible to ensure that the deceased can receive a dignified burial.” Macaron has some experience helping with the disposition of the remains of soldiers who died in action, but he is reluctant to talk about it.
Chai: Some families didn’t get the promised compensation, did they?
Macaron: Yeah, I think that’s true. A lot of Russian families can’t even find the bodies of their dead relatives. And if there’s no body, they’re considered “missing in action.” It’s a mess, the chaos of war.
Chai: If you were fighting for your own country, maybe you wouldn’t be so … forgotten. You’d be remembered as a martyr.
Macaron: I know. But here we’re nobodies, like flies. From a psychological or moral standpoint, there’s nothing remotely meaningful about this. That’s why I say I have no particular stance. I’m just an ordinary guy who made the wrong choice and got involved in this war. My role is to be a grunt, or maybe more accurately, to be cannon fodder. [chuckles]
[Aerial footage of a Russian soldier in a trench, reading a note dropped from a Ukrainian drone urging him to “follow the drone and surrender.” In subsequent footage, the soldier is seen communicating with the drone via gestures, and later, following the path of the drone in order to surrender to the Ukrainians.]
Chai (V.O.): I’d seen videos of Russian soldiers surrendering to Ukrainian drones. I once asked Macaron why he didn’t do the same: Why not just surrender to the Ukranians, so he could go home?
Macaron (V.O.): Because I’m not Russian. It’s that simple. If you’re Russian, you might have been drafted or conscripted, just like the Ukrainians. Some of these guys were forced to fight, they had no choice, so there’s some mutual understanding there. But for foreign soldiers like us, the Ukrainians are going to wonder why we decided to come here. Was it for the money, or maybe for the thrill of killing? They’re going to feel more hostile toward us.
Chai (V.O.): Macaron believes that unless the war comes to an end, neither the Ukrainians nor the Russians will allow him to leave.
Macaron: [speaking to the camera, in a video posted to social media] They won’t let you leave this place alive.
[Screenshot of the Chinese-language New York Times website with a photo of Presidents Trump and Zelenskyy gesturing at each other during Zelenskyy’s February 28, 2025 visit to the White House.]
Chai (V.O.): Macaron says his only hope is for the war to end. But with the current level of geopolitical instability, ceasefire negotiations will be an uphill battle. The day after our interview, Macaron told me he had finally been transferred out of the assault unit, and allowed to lay down his weapons.
Chai: What do the Russian soldiers think about the current situation?
Macaron: Most of them think the war will be over soon. They don’t want to fight anymore. They just want to go home. All of us feel that way, to be honest. We’re sick of this war.
Chai: How so?
Macaron: Anyone who’s experienced battle, who’s seen war up close, never wants to experience it again. And they don’t tend to glorify it, either. It’s the people online hyping up war and acting all heroic that I find most disgusting. In war, there are no heroes. Everyone’s a villain, because you have no choice but to kill.
Chai: Would you include yourself in that, too?
Macaron: I’d say so, yeah. I made a mistake, a wrong choice, and now I’m stuck fighting this Slavic war. Every inch of territory here is paid for in blood. It’s not at all cool or fun. It’s inhumane and immoral. Especially the way rank-and-file soldiers get treated if they’re captured. Some are humiliated, tortured, or killed. That sort of behavior just goes against basic human decency and morality. It really sucks.
Chai: Before this program aired, Macaron sent me a message saying that he had been injured in a bombing while helping to evacuate the wounded. He had suffered injuries to his arms and legs, and had been sent to a hospital far from the front lines. But for once, he sounded hopeful. He said that of all the things that could have happened to him in this war, this was the best outcome he could have hoped for.
Chai: [speaking to Macaron again, before his injury occurred] After this war is over, would you ever fight in another?
Macaron: I just want the war to end. And if it does, I’d much rather help people than hurt them. Haven’t we been hurt enough? And haven’t we hurt others enough? I think so.
Chai: From what you’re saying, it sounds like even though you try to tamp down your feelings or not succumb to emotional weakness, you do feel … guilty about harming others.
Macaron: I think I do. Even though we try to comfort ourselves, or deceive ourselves, by saying “Oh, this is just how war is,” at some point we have to face reality.
Chai: Over this past year or so of war and everything else you’ve experienced, was there ever a moment that made you feel particularly uncomfortable, or guilty?
Macaron: That sort of thing happens a lot. Especially here in Bakhmut, where we’re often going into empty houses, and there are still things like furniture and stuff inside. If we see something we can use at our command post, we’ll take it. And honestly, that doesn’t seem right to me, taking things that don’t belong to us. Even if no one is coming back for them, they belonged to ordinary people, ordinary Ukrainians. It doesn’t feel right for us to trash or loot or take their things. So sometimes I feel bad about that.
[A video of a soldier, seen from behind, sitting in a wooden chair and playing a piano in an empty house.]
Chai: In one of Macaron’s videos, he and his comrades find a dusty piano in the ruins of someone’s home.
Macaron (V.O.): If I’m honest, sometimes I get a bit emotional when I’m standing there in these wrecked houses, looking at the ruins around me. Sometimes in my mind, I silently apologize to the owners, to the people who used to live there. I feel like I should apologize for my behavior. [the piano video fades away and is replaced with Macaron speaking to Cai Jing again] Even though I wasn’t the one who did it, even if the place was trashed before I showed up, I’m still part of the system. I’m on the side that did this to them, so I’m complicit.
Chai: You said you don’t want to harm people anymore. You want to do something to help, instead. What kind of things?
Macaron: Well, there are a lot of kids in the Donbas region. [A photo shows a blasted-out school building with charred, twisted pieces of metal playground equipment outside.] I used to see kids begging at the train station in Donetsk. Someday if I get the chance, I’d like to do something to help them, even if it’s just making sure they have enough to eat or enough to wear.
Chai: Before this program aired, Macaron was injured. [A video shows only Macaron’s arms and legs. He is sitting in a wheelchair, his right arm encased in a white cast.] Unable to walk, he was evacuated from the front lines to a hospital. In two more months, his contract will be up. When he was in pain and couldn’t sleep at night, he wrote this poem and sent it to me:
[Chai Jing reads the poem, to the accompaniment of tinkling piano music and a video showing Macaron walking outdoors, on patrol with other soldiers amid empty roads and demolished buildings. Lastly, there is an aerial shot of a neighborhood in Bakhmut where all the buildings have been bombed or burned, with smoke still rising from the ruins.]
Chai Jing (V.O.):
I like the pain
because it reminds me
I’m still alive.
Trees have been blasted apart,
but young saplings will bud again.
Houses have been bombed to rubble,
but engineers will rebuild them.
It is only the dead,
their limbs torn asunder,
who won’t be coming back.
The dead watch the living die,
and the living wish the dead could revive.
I am in Bakhmut—
a city destroyed by war. [Chinese]
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