The impact of Trump’s rhetoric on U.S.-Canada relations : NPR

SCOTT DETROW, HOST:

Canadians head to the polls tomorrow in an election that many believe to be the most consequential in decades. And a big reason for that is America’s president, Donald Trump. New tariffs have threatened to crush Canada’s economy, which depends heavily on U.S. trade. And President Trump has openly threatened Canadian sovereignty by talking about turning the country into the 51st American state. All of this seems to have put Canadians on edge. And no matter which party wins tomorrow, Canada’s new leader will need to think about how the country will position itself in relation to Trump and a rapidly changing world order. I talked about all of this with Lloyd Axworthy, a member of the Liberal Party who served as minister of foreign affairs in Canada from 1996 to 2000. These days, he chairs the World Refugee & Migration Council. When we spoke, he told me that the strong alliance between the U.S. and Canada – a hallmark of global affairs for generations – has been severely disrupted.

LLOYD AXWORTHY: A couple of major ruptures have taken place. One is the fundamental question of trust. That’s the lubricant that makes things happen. And we’ve always had this trusting relationship, and now it’s lost. And what a lot of Canadians believe, and I just – you know, I had a dinner with a group of friends last night who basically said, what bothers them most is that over – what? – 70 million Americans voted for Donald Trump knowing that he had these kinds of really extremist positions and are still supporting him. I mean, I know his approval ratings, I guess, are coming down. But that really means that how, in the future, can we trust? – ’cause it’s clear that the kind of democratic safeguards that were put in place by the Constitution are just being overridden.

So it would take some time, and it would take some – a very different opening. But I think it could happen. Let me just say, I mean, when I was foreign minister of Canada, I guess one of my best friends was Madeleine Albright. We had some differences, certainly. But we also worked cooperatively together to make sure that things like salmon and water and trade and so on were working well. We don’t walk around with a chip on our shoulder. But the provocation, I think, is there.

DETROW: When you’re talking about a threat, when you’re talking about rhetoric about land acquisition, when you’re talking about strong measures, these are all pretty serious terms that sometimes lead to very serious consequences. At the far extreme of things, we’re talking about the things that wars start around. How much worse do you think the relationship between the United States and Canada – as strange of a question as this is to ask – could get?

AXWORTHY: Well, I think one of the strategies that Canadian governments will be following is we don’t want to get into sort of a hot war with the United States, but we will be working very actively to develop collaboration with other countries. Mexico is a good example, but there are other countries around the world who are feeling the impact of Mr. Trump’s sort of aggressiveness.

You’d be amazed, Scott, to see how Canadians have responded. We – all the bourbon and American wine are off the shelves. People are selling their condos in Florida. People are no longer sort of buying American products. And it’s just a – it’s a full-scale kind of protest, and I think the election itself will solidify that. It will unify Canadians around that. And therefore, I think the American government and Mr. Trump and his administration will have to deal with a very unified and very sort of strongly determined country of 40 million people who say we’re not accepting this kind of aggression and intervention.

DETROW: Can I just take a step back – and I want to ask you about something I was thinking about. The last question I asked you is, what do you think about the prospect of an American-Canadian war? You are the former foreign secretary of Canada. You’re talking about your close relationship with Madeleine Albright, the close relationship between the U.S. and Canada. How does it feel to even be having this theoretical conversation? It just seems like such a strange thing to be asking about.

AXWORTHY: Oh, I know. It’s – Scott, it’s surreal. I mean, I don’t – thought that I would ever had to be engaged in this kind of conversation. Canadians are – first, they’re angry, but they’re also sad. And we’re also learning how to adapt, I mean, in a way. I wrote an article for one of the major newspapers that we have to look at Ukraine as a cautionary tale. And I remember once meeting with a senior Ukrainian leader who asked me the question. He said, look, it – how is it that you live next to a big, powerful country, and you seem to get along? And my answer was, well, do it cautiously.

But we’re now in the same situation in a way that Ukraine is. We’re living next door to a government that seems to be hell-bent on expansion, of intimidation and of getting its own way and doesn’t – is not clearly interested in cooperative efforts, which I think is so unlike, I think, what we’ve been used to dealing with in different administrations from the different parties. I think Mr. Trump’s administration is really, I guess, what they call a black unicorn.

DETROW: Obviously, there’s the massive trade between the two countries on the border. What else is the biggest thing to you that is lost here if this tense relationship continues?

AXWORTHY: I guess as somebody who has spent a lot of time in international matters, the withdrawal of the United States from cooperative relationships with countries and governments that share their values – this kind of isolationism, this pulling back, this seemed preference to play in the same sandbox as Putin and Xi Jinping and the other sort of authoritarians, I mean, it’s a – it really is sort of stunning for those outside to see just what is happening. Personally, I question whether I could cross the border without being apprehended.

DETROW: Really? That’s a serious concern?

AXWORTHY: Yes, it is a – there are – there already are cautionary advisories going out because they – what we’re seeing is that border security, if they ask you to give over the cellphone, and they check it out and say that somebody – you’re making a comment about the president of the United States, who knows where you’re going to end up? I mean, I think this increasing effort to overcome basic rules and laws and treatments is having a huge impact. And we had really strong levels of connection, and we could end up having a very cold and frosty border, which I think would be to the detriment of both of us.

DETROW: Lloyd Axworthy is former Canadian minister of foreign affairs and is now the chair of the World Refugee & Migration Council. Thank you so much for, I guess, talking to this American in this moment and helping us understand how Canadians are viewing this moment in time.

AXWORTHY: Well, I appreciate the opportunity to do it. Thank you very much.

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